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Episode #9


Nic Woodthorpe-Wright
Executive Coaching

Nic is a CPCC (Certified Professional Co-Active Coach), PCC (Professional Certified Coach) as well as holding an MBA from Wollongong University.

Nic is the Managing Director of WWA Corporate Coaching firm which he founded in 2003. As the most experienced Executive Coaching company in the Middle East they deliver a wide range of executive coaching solutions to organizations seeking certified executive coaches with the knowledge and expertise to work with their senior leaders.

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Nic Woodthorpe-Wright
Executive Coaching

Mireia Mujika: Hi, everyone. And welcome to this new episode of ways to grow, where every two weeks I will interview experts to help us understand and discern different disciplines that will help us grow, improve our well-being and be better leaders. With this aim, we will travel from east to west, from the pure psychological studies to the ancient Germans. We will look at every field and you will take what interests you. Join me on this journey of learning and discovery. My name is Mireia Mujika, I’m a personal executive coach and for this episode, I have invited Nic Woodthorpe-Wright to join us to talk about executive coaching. He loves about it. So, I think I have said. 


Nic Woodthorpe: Thank you. 


Mireia Mujika: Yeah, is that all right?


Nic Woodthorpe: Perfect.


Mireia Mujika: Nic is a certified professional co-active coach, also a PCC or a professional certified coach as well as he calls an MBA from Gualang University. As a strong promoter of coaching and executive coaching across the Middle East, Nic was the president, I believe the first president of the international coach federation Dubai chapter for nine years. Nic is also the managing director of WWA corporate coaching friend, which he founded in 2003. As the most experienced executive coaching company in the Middle East, they deliver a wide range of executive coaching solutions to organizations seeking certified executive coaches with the knowledge and expertise to work with their senior leaders. Their executive coaching solutions expanding into providing leadership in coaching skills for leaders, leadership team development and SRI at work or relationship systems intelligence. Listener, if you want to know more about coaching and specifically about executive coaching and if you think your co-workers or someone you know may benefit from it, tune in as we hope to solve your questions. But before we start, let me remind you of our website, where you will find the details of all our guests and also the books and resources they recommend. And if you like this podcast, please follow us and rate us so that we can keep growing. And finally, welcome.


Nic Woodthorpe: Thank you. 


Mireia Mujika: Thank you very much for accepting my invite and being my guest today. Thank you. Nic, you were born in the UK but you have been living in Dubai for around 28 years?


Nic Woodthorpe: 20 years. 


Mireia Mujika: More than in the UK.


Nic Woodthorpe: That's right. 


Mireia Mujika: So, before we go deep into coaching, how has the coaching business changed in the Middle East in all these years?


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, it's really grown from nothing. And when we first started, when I started as a coach, nobody knew what it was. I mean, we didn't even know what it was, really, in all honesty. And so we've gone from that positioning and that level of understanding through to our current level of understanding and maturity, which I think is, from a world perspective, I think we've got some of the best coaching here in the middle east across the world because there's a level of intensity that has happened here, which we find when you're working in these relatively small communities. You know, we can talk about Dubai, Abu Dhabi, Riyadh, Jeddah, whatever, they're relatively large cities but those are the places where coaching is happening. So, there's an intensity that happens around that and so people are becoming very experienced or experienced fairly quickly because they're able to find clients and deliver coaching. And coaching can really only happen sort of at expert level with a deepening of that experience for the coach and their experience in delivering the process and creating impact. So, it's an important part and I don't think if you go to US, Europe, maybe even Asia, I don't know that you have that level of intensity, and also the marketplace here. 


Mireia Mujika: What do you mean with the marketplace?


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, you know, this part of the world is set up to, you know, we're all expatriates here, right? So, we're here for a reason. There's an intent there, and so life is happening and we are a part of this flow of life and we come here with a proactive mindset and of course, that doesn't always work but nonetheless, there is an intent. And I think that if you think I can do this better or maybe I need to find clarity and so forth, we can look around us and we can see that there are opportunities to work with people that help us then, of course, coaching is a key part of it. So, I think purely the percentage of people here that would be curious and open to coaching is potentially much higher than you would find in many other sort of non-expat cities.


Mireia Mujika: Yeah. I imagine that first when you started coaching many years ago, coaching was something completely new for everyone. 


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah, people thought I was mad. I remember my boss, my old boss, bless him, you know, when I said I’m going to leave this very secure and solid and promising future and I’m going to become a coach and he looked at me and said ‘you're absolutely crazy’ and he used other language. And that said to me that, I guess his poncho for risk was slightly lower than mine at that point. We obviously read different scenarios but for me, it was always a risk. It was a risk to go into a space that had not been established and nobody knew what it was. But actually, because I was so caught up and I was so passionate and there was something inside of me that was saying ‘this is the future, you have to explore this’, so I didn't have an option. Ultimately, I did not have an option. And so that's great. When that happens, and it doesn't happen very often. It's certainly in my experience of life, where you have that sense of clarity and then you just leap in and then you have to make it happen. You just do. You try everything. You know, there are some crazy experiences in my early coaching years that I look back and I laugh at it but they were beautiful experiences at the same time. And you go out there, you say I’m a coach, I want to coach you and everyone goes ‘sounds lovely, but what the heck is it?’ And, you know, can you keep your distance for a moment because, you know, I want to understand a little bit more about this and so you spent a lot of time in that explaining place before your sort of the door is opened and you're able to bring coaching into that space. But then again, in this part of the world, we are surrounded by people that are trying something new and the fact that they've left their home country and come to an environment that most of us have never experienced prior to arrival and they're taking a risk. So, there is a different mindset already. There's a curiosity already in that. So, the pickup of coaching I think, you know, it happened, well, it's a slow process, right, to reach that tipping point. It's always a relatively slow process to start with. There were people in the system that were ready to be the people to try and test.


Mireia Mujika: The pioneers. 


Nic Woodthorpe: The pioneers of being a recipient of this thing called coaching. 


Mireia Mujika: Yeah, beautiful. Well, so what is coaching then? What is executive coaching?


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, yeah, coaching, executive coaching, leadership coaching, it's ultimately all very similar. You need to bring in each of those niches and there's many issues that exist out there now. They're growing and that's a great thing. You need to bring a certain skill set or understanding potentially to a certain niche and I’m not going to say what those are for each niche because it varies but ultimately, the process of coaching is the same and the underlying competencies and skills that you need to bring are not dissimilar in all of those places. But really, it's about having a conversation and with an individual or of course, it's moving now into groups and teams but if we talk about on a one-to-one basis, having a conversation with someone that really is there in service of what is trying to happen and holding the space for that person to go on the journey through the use of powerful questions, holding the space, speaking, you know, intuitively sometimes, not holding on to outcomes. And as a coach, our role is literally to hold that space and create the opportunity for new spaces of discussion and thoughts and feeling as well. And so, you know, of course the skills that we need to bring to that is, you know, it's fairly well documented but, those skills that you bring ultimately are where the power gets created and that's what takes time for people coming through the journey of becoming a coach to perfect and to deepen. So, we can all ask powerful questions but can you ask the most powerful question at the right time in the right place to the right, I’m not the right person but the person in front of you? You know what I mean? And that is something that will only come over time that you can ask the, you know, potentially the highest possible version of the question that's needed at that moment. And so, you know, seasoned coaches are able to access some of those spaces much more efficiently, maybe. Not to say that all other coaches couldn't but sometimes, takes a much longer sort of journey to get there.


Mireia Mujika: Good for our listeners. What is, because this is a question that I get a lot, what is the difference between personal coaching and executive coaching?


Nic Woodthorpe: Mostly context. You know, so you're working in a business environment and you are coaching people that are looking to work on ideas and challenges and problems potentially and development in a work scenario. That doesn't mean that those aren't showing up in other spaces, of course, outside, whether that be community or personal life and so forth but the focus now has come and the potential information and feedback is coming from a corporate perspective and so there's a number of things that I think that seasoned executive coaches bring into those spaces being able to hold and understand what a corporate environment feels like, what it potentially feels like to operate at a certain level within that environment and being able to create a level of comfort and safety and confidentiality very quickly with the person that you're working with. So, if you're working with a CEO, then there is an expectation and this is changing of course, and this is kind of an old mindset but it's one that exists and it still exists today. That CEO would expect you to potentially have done something similar or at least held that kind of role or have worked with other CEOs in similar spaces and that's not because, and we know from coaching point of view, you shouldn't bring what you think is the right answer, you shouldn't bring your thoughts your perspectives necessarily because those are not going to be in deep service of that individual journey but there is a sense that okay, at least you understand me, you understand the environment I swim in, you understand the jargon, it's really context. 


Mireia Mujika: Yes.


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah. So, I mean here's a thought, right? So, let's say there's a niche that is working with pregnant women in their third trimester. All right?


Mireia Mujika: That's very niche. 


Nic Woodthorpe: Okay. It's a specific niche but there's no reason that niche shouldn't exist and yet me as an individual, I don't have that experience. I’m a male and while I have a number of kids, I’ve not gone through that, you know, hands-on experience. And so, while I can coach into that space, there are probably experiences and awareness that I can't bring into my questioning process. 


Mireia Mujika: I agree. I agree, 100 percent. Good. A question that I like asking, what fascinates you most about coaching?


Nic Woodthorpe: Oh, I just think it's this powerful space for people to make tremendous breakthroughs for themselves and therefore, for others. In just a fraction of a moment, I’ve seen it happen time and time again. It's such a beautiful moment when that light bulb switch just gets flicked and it's like, oh my goodness. Oh, my goodness, I’ve just seen a whole new space, a whole new way and therefore, I’m inspired, I’m excited and I can see other ways to be either in service or to show up or whatever it is. When you see that in someone's eyes, that is just a beautiful and an aspirational moment. It doesn't always happen, right? We'd like to say that all coaching - and you don't always see it in the moment. I think you and I have spoken about this a little bit. Sometimes, the person can call you back in, you know, in months and say, you remember that coaching we did on such and so you're thinking, really remember? You'll never guess what happened and but so what we're doing is we're generating the potential and the possibility for new thinking and new clarity that does, it's changing the world. It's changing the world because we're changing people that want to be better, serve better, do more, be more focused and just show up. They want to access their life in a bigger way and that's a beautiful thing.


Mireia Mujika: Yeah. sometimes, I have this like, you know, this hamster that goes in the wheel and sometimes just, you know, we don't get out of the wheel but we just stop the wheel for at least a little bit and we realize where we are and then okay, then the change kind of starts.


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah. Generally, something shows up, right? So, you know, we can be on that hamster wheel and that's okay too but then suddenly the hamster wheel starts moving faster and suddenly we don't have the energy. So, there's a critical moment or the hamster wheel stops and we fall over. You know, there's a critical moment we have to start asking you questions and mostly, if we're working only on our sort of answering our own questions, there is a finite amount of information that we have in our system that we can use. So, having a coach is about how do I access a deeper level of information that does sit within me and that's not to say it's only as an intellectual awareness. You and I know that this is about what I can feel intuitively, what information sits with physically embodied in me. There is information. There's a host of knowledge, wisdom, understanding that is way beyond the conscious understanding at this moment in time and it's not that the coach does anything crazy or mad or weird but can help you access that information through a whole set of tools and processes that they've studied through their journey and this is why you want to work with, you know, a certified coach at the end of the day, whether that's with the ICF or another governing body, that's semi-immaterial. I work with the ICF, I’ve been a strong proponent of that because it's worked here at this particular moment in time but work with a set of tools as a coaching methodology that has been looked at by a governing body and they say yes, that is a process that works and we are prepared to give it the stamp of approval and then working with a coach that's certified through that process, I think is an important part. 


Mireia Mujika: Now that you touch the, well, you touch several things but you touch one that I’m very passionate about, which is the wisdom of the body. So, how does someone take this or coach take this to an executive coaching setup?


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah, I mean there's so many different tools out there, right? But it's interesting, and the most simple of ways to have and worked with very senior people myself and sometimes, just to get them out of their chair, I mean it sounds like not much, right, but to get them out of their chair and for a route from behind their desk, okay? Because there's a lot of safety behind a desk, especially when you're a very senior person because that's where a lot of your power sits, right, to move them out of that space and just to sit them in a different part of the room and you can ask the same question you asked that was when we were in there behind that. And you will have a whole different world show up. So, that is the most, you know, probably the simplest way I can think of it but there's many other ways and that's just purely using the physical movement of an individual, the geography. And then any movement and so forth, it changes the information that's available to us and how we can respond to some of the powerful questions that coaches are going to ask us and invariably, we're slightly amazed by what shows up, you know, wow. I can hear my answer and that's really interesting to me, you know, that's something that shows up, you know, because I’m listening to myself answering the question, I didn't actually know that I thought that or I knew that or I felt that. And so that's a very interesting place and then that individual is suddenly aware that there's more available to them than they previously were able to access and that's potentially through the catalyst of a coach.


Mireia Mujika: And now that you mentioned coaching because well, I had the experience with some executives that they were a little bit afraid of moving themselves a little bit like, oh, what is this coaching thing, do I have to close my eyes or what do I have to do? So, what can someone expect to happen in an executive coaching session? Anything?


Nic Woodthorpe: I don't know about expectations because the idea is that we're not there to scare people, you know. Nobody's going to have breakthroughs in a state of fear and so our role as coaches is to come in and be in deep service of that higher version of the other individual that's sitting opposite us and how we do that is that we need to create a number of things. One is we need to create a confidential container within which that conversation is going to happen. The other is we need to do other design work that helps that individual go, okay fine, now I understand and actually, I can say what I like and what I don't like here, you know? And if I said, look, are you okay if I shout at you when I think that you're not showing up properly. And the other person is going to sit there going, no that doesn't really work for me and that's okay. So, I’m not going to shout it, I’m not saying that's what we do. I’m using probably not a particularly good example there but what I’m saying is that there's a design piece and the idea there is to create a space that is a co-creative and secure and safe.


Mireia Mujika: Trustworthy.


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah, trusting space. No movement can happen if we haven't established that level of trust both in our professionalism in terms of our journey and our ability in terms of interacting with that person. And that ability and that trust in terms of how we're going to work together and how we're going to best find a way through what is an unknown journey at that particular time. 


Mireia Mujika: So, everything is designed, everything is decided by coach and coochie. So, anything that happens there is just both –


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, then anything can happen within that container. I say anything. You know, it's a professional journey at the end of the day and what really is there is that the unfolding of the appropriate information to show up happens because we've created a safe space for that to be there, a level of vulnerability and, you know, sometimes from a coaching standpoint tough love, right? So, you know, we do that with the kids not because we don't love our kids, we love them, you know. We couldn't not love them in any shapewear form but sometimes, there's a little bit of a little bit that's not going to work here or, you know, and so on. And so that's how that's part of the job and so there has to be mutual respect for that to happen.


Mireia Mujika: But a little bit of a challenge.


Nic Woodthorpe: Absolutely challenge. Absolutely, in alignment with the container and the agreement.


Mireia Mujika: Exactly. So, imagine now, there is a CEO here that actually hires your company for doing some executive coaching for himself. So, what does that process look like?


Nic Woodthorpe: For the individual, I mean obviously what we do is we need to understand context. So, a lot of the time it's really about having the conversation with the individual or with, because we work with a lot of larger organizations so invariably, there are a number of touch points that need to happen but let's understand context, let's understand the intent for the journey. So, you know, what is the desired objective outcome, why we may not know the specific objectives of that individual or all the multiple individuals we have at that moment. There is generally a direction for which there's an expectation and so we need to understand that as we come in. And then there are a lot of different aspects that we can design around, whether there is assessment data that's brought into that process, whether there are stakeholders that need to be involved, you know, again, sort of aspirations, I mean organizational circumstances, right? There could be some very big things happening within the organization at that particular moment in time, you don't need to factor those into the logistics and the journey and so forth. And it could come down these days as we know to is it face-to-face or is virtual. There's so many different elements that need to be addressed in the logistical journey of that but, you know, once you've got that at a high level of alignment then, you know, it's really about how do we know that we're going to select the right coach for that CEO as an example and so we do our deep work on that individual in terms of who they are, the character, the circumstances, situation, the objectives, the potential objectives, even things like language and then we'll go away and we'll select because we have over 40 professional coaches, hand selected coaches that we work with across this region and beyond and so we have a very good clear picture of our coaches and their skill sets and their approach and so forth. And we're able then to go into that collection of expert coaches and say, right, we have a number of profiles that we're going to present to you, given what we understand. And then that really is the beginning that, you know, there's some chemistry that needs to happen as you know, all chemistry, all coaching should start with chemistry sessions, you know, whether it's personal coaching, executive coaching, so forth because we need to put the coachee, the individual receiving the coaching in the driving seat of the process because the trust needs to start with them feeling like it's my process, I own this, I get to decide how it unfolds, at least in terms of the character I’m going to work with. That's super important. So, that's sort of the early parts of the process.


Mireia Mujika: And then how long this process take? How long does it take in time?


Nic Woodthorpe: It's an interesting question, you know. I would say product, it does vary but on the whole, you know, we're looking at a six month engagement, that's 90 percent of our engagements. We have worked for shorter. There could be certain scenarios that happen where it's a bit shorter. We do have scenarios where we work with people for years. That doesn't mean the same level of intensity that you have in that six months but there is an ongoing journey because there's very clear possibilities that can be served by using a coach during that period.


Mireia Mujika: Very good.


Nic Woodthorpe: Sorry about that bit, the beginning where I stopped because I couldn't really, I was thinking to myself I’m fading in and out and it was a bit weird.


Mireia Mujika: Yeah, I’m already used to it but also like the first time, I was like cloudy, it's not working. 


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah. And I’m talking and suddenly my voice fades out and I’m thinking about that rather than my answer, which is not –


Mireia Mujika: Yeah, sorry for that. 


Nic Woodthorpe: I mean, I’m in the swing now.


Mireia Mujika: You are. Okay, cool. So, we're talking about the process. Okay, good. So, who is the client that would benefit the most from our executive coaching process?


Nic Woodthorpe: Everybody.


Mireia Mujika: So, whenever I ask this question, this is always the answer. Whatever it is, whether it is a therapy or it is yoga or whatever it is, the answer is always everybody.


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, you know, it's not everybody at the end of the day because the best people, the people that are most ready and it is about being ready and open and curious and having said that, we've worked with people that didn't start in that place but because we did the setup so powerfully, they softened into the process. So, you can't always predict that, you know, oh there's a certain person they're never going to be open to coaching. We don't know that for a fact. There's an idea that that may be the case but, you know, it's important to try and give the option to a lot of people and also at the same time, invite people into that process because here's an opportunity, this is something that certainly in corporate space we are still to some degree pushing up against, which is that coaching is there to solve problems.


Mireia Mujika: Yeah.


Nic Woodthorpe: Now, coaching can solve problems but that's not the primary choice that we are here. We are here because we know there's so much more of each of those individuals that you have in your business. There's so much more to show up, not just to make money on the bottom line but to be in deep service of the product or the service that you want to bring to the market. You exist as an organization for a reason and that reason is not to make money. Making money should be a byproduct of that, absolutely. You're there in service, you want to bring something that serves your community, your audience, your customer and when you're able to do that powerfully and fully with integrity and with honesty and with skill then that's a beautiful thing. And so we want people to have the opportunity to go to that space and bring that potential and that possibility and that wisdom and that experience and so forth and bring it powerfully into that spaces where it's in service of whatever is trying to happen in the world. 


Mireia Mujika: Yeah. And this idea that you were talking about, I just remember that in many cases, coaches are called when they are thinking about firing someone and I think that actually would be the wrong moment to bring a coach in and I was thinking like, okay so if you have 20 people in your team, you bring the coach when you're thinking about firing these young people, right. So, it's like, oh why, let's coach the other end.


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah, and it's a situation we've faced numerous times. And the good news is that we've named it up front so, you know, you can be in a situation where this happens and we say, look, why is coaching here at this particular moment in time from your perspective? You know, and it comes out in various ways but if it's about this person's not really working, this is their last chance. Now, as long as that is presented to the various different stakeholders and people involved as the intent then coaching can still be of service. So, it shouldn't just be taken away just for that reason because I’ve seen turnarounds that you cannot imagine from people that were not fitting that clearly the organization had hired because they could see the potential and the intelligence and the wisdom in that person but they'd come in and it was just, you know, not working for numerous reasons and coaching has shifted that massively. So, that person was able to show up and be present and bring that value. So, there is always a potential for turnaround but we have to be honest about why this is here and invariably, we would suggest that that's not the primary use of coaching and should not really be the first use of coaching within an organization because what you do is you set a precedent and so people within that organization start to go, well we know why you've got a coach because, you know, you're on your last chance clearly. So, we make all these assumptions. It's really important that people that are promoting coaching within organizations set it up as an aspirational tool for future and current development of that individual so their future develops, potentially more rapidly or more fully or creates opportunities that previously were not available to that person. And I think that's important we make sure we bring that perspective to coaching. And maybe, it'll be used for other things as well but let's not have that as the primary reason coaching's shown up.


Mireia Mujika: Yes. Now, I have a case of study. I will give you a study.


Nic Woodthorpe: Oh, a case study?


Mireia Mujika: Case study, yeah. 


Nic Woodthorpe: I don't get any homework. 


Mireia Mujika: This is Mike. He's 38 years old and he suffers from burnout. This is a question that I ask everyone that comes here. So, how can you or your company help him?


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, I think it's about understanding firstly, is coaching an appropriate solution because, you know, there are so many things. The human being is a complex entity and to imagine that coaching is the solution to everything, we'll be fooling ourselves. There is an appropriate response to whatever situation arises and so we need to know a little bit more about that person and so that's why we do these early conversations to understand what is the context, what is the situation, what are some of the other things going on here, what is the hope for that person, you know, have they selected themselves to be there or has somebody else said you have to be there. All of these things play into our decision to say yeah, we do believe that coaching may be in service here.


Mireia Mujika: Or maybe not?


Nic Woodthorpe: Or maybe not. Maybe there's another type of intervention that's needed at that moment and it has happened along the way, of course.


Mireia Mujika: Yes, great. I think we're reaching the last question already. 


Nic Woodthorpe: Really?


Mireia Mujika: Yeah.


Nic Woodthorpe: 10 out of 10 so far or, maybe tell me after those notes.


Mireia Mujika: The last question is what book or other resources would you recommend to someone that wants to go, that wants to know more about executive coaching or coaching in general? Or any book that you really like?


Nic Woodthorpe: Any book that I really like. 


Mireia Mujika: Yes.


Nic Woodthorpe: Well, you know what? I mean, I’ve all the books that I’ve read over the years have moved because I’ve been coaching for 20 years and I still love coaching. I don't do so much myself because I’m running the business. So, a lot of my reading has moved, slightly shifted out of the pure coaching space into a lot more sort of leadership and organizational journeys and so forth. 


Mireia Mujika: That's also great.


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah, I mean a big one for me that is that has been around now for a couple of years was ‘Reinventing organizations’ by Frederick Laloux. And I do go back to that but that's about organizational structure, that's not necessarily about coaching. Coaching plays a very powerful role in that and I think coaching as a mindset within leadership and within organizations, a very important part of that organization going on its dynamic journey of change through circumstance or need or whatever it is. So, I think coaching now, is showing up more in a systemic way. And that for me is sort of the future of coaching is, how do we bring more coaching conversations into every single part of a business. And that means external coaching will always have a place. It's very important that it has a place in its particular niche but that shouldn't be the only form that coaching is showing up in. You know, we've got team coaching, we've got group coaching, we've got coaching, you know, skills that we need to bring. We've got informal coaching conversations, that are showing up in form of appraisal processes or other development conversations that are going on. And this is something that's shown up multiple times along the way is that how do we train leaders within organizations to have these type of conversations because we've been told that it's a black and white world that either you did or you didn't attain the objective. But whether it was attained or not attained is semi-material. How do we have the conversation that raises that individual up to see a bigger opportunity, a bigger possibility and to bring more of them to the journey and to align, you know, create clarity and alignment? So, that's about conversation. So, for me, coaching now is how do we bring coaching to the biggest array of people within organizations and have it show up at all the different levels in all the different forms, whether it's with an internal coach, an external coach, in many other ways. But that's the future. So, I know you've asked me about this.


Mireia Mujika: No, wait. But listener, like what Juanita was explaining here, so we have Linda Berlot talking about systemic coaching, I guess in like two weeks after this. So, we'll talk about that as well. If you're interested, just tune in that one as well. But it's not very important what you were saying.


Nic Woodthorpe: Indeed. I think that coaching has a massive part to play in the changing world that we live in because conversations and the ability to listen deeply are skills that we all think we're brilliant at but the truth is we're not nearly as good as we could be or we need to be because that is a need. I mean there's some horrible things happening out there in the world right now and that's deeply sad and I don't know why those things are happening but I can guarantee that we need to raise up our ability to communicate and listen to the needs and fears of everybody in the system. That doesn't mean that the choices become easy and circumstances become easy but we need to continue to raise our skills around that area.


Mireia Mujika: Yes. I’m processing what you're saying. So, yeah. Going back to the books or other resources. So, you were talking about this book from Lalo, organizational change, what was that?


Nic Woodthorpe: Reinventing organization. It's not your average read. So, if you're a coach on an aspirational journey, I think you've got the ICF website, that's That's a great resource and that will help you to understand how to go on a particular journey, credential journey and who you might do that with. And there's a lot of resources in there around the competencies of coaching and the ethical practices of coaching, which I think is another piece we haven't really mentioned here but as a member of the ICF, we sign up to an ethical code of practice, which is a very important part of this process. We’re dealing with very sensitive and confidential scenarios and it's important that we show up as professionals.


Mireia Mujika: One hundred percent.


Nic Woodthorpe: And so that holds us accountable around that, through that and through the ICF.


Mireia Mujika: I remember actually, that's the most difficult part of the exam for me, the ethical part because there are some scenarios that they put in the exam that are actually very tricky. 


Nic Woodthorpe: Yeah. And the good news is that we are being encouraged to understand what the ethical challenges may be in certain scenarios and to hold ourselves around that. And sometimes, we need to push back so a client can come to us and say look we need you X, Y and Z and we just go, look, from an ethical standpoint, I’m afraid that's not going to work for us. And we've had, not because the request was unethical but because it didn't work for us in that particular scenario and we have to operate at the higher version of that, which is what we've done over the years. I’m very happy to say that.


Mireia Mujika: One hundred percent. Anything else, Nic, that you would like to add to this conversation that we're having, anything that we are letting there?


Nic Woodthorpe: No. I think just an encouragement to everybody that's out there that is either looking to become a coach or is a leader or a manager in an organization; be curious about the skills of coaching even if you're not going to become a coach. And it's not complicated, it's a great set of tools and skills to bring whether it's in the corporate environment or even into family relationship environments. Trust me, we're all having conversations all the time, we're in relationship. If we can do that better then we're all going to be in a better place. So, yeah, an encouragement to people to be curious about that. 


Mireia Mujika: Yes. I think coaching can improve any aspect of our lives. Yeah, very good. Cool. Nic, thank you very much.


Nic Woodthorpe: My pleasure. Thank you.


Mireia Mujika: Thank you for coming here and having this conversation. It was a great conversation, I think it was enlightening and we could understand many things about coaching and above all, this coaching in this scenario of the corporate scenario. So, thank you very much. Listeners, tune in. Also, you have the website, where you can find the books and resources and also the biography, little biography of Nic and the rest of the guests. So, thank you very much and see you in two weeks. Thank you, bye. Thank you. Cool. 


List of Authors, Books and Resources: 

  • ‘Reinventing organizations’ by Frederick Laloux.

  • – ICF website

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